Hanna Dworkin - SEASON FINALE

Have you ever been thrown into a court room without knowing what the case entails??? In this KGQ season finale, Hanna Dworkin approached the judge with ALMOST no hesitation. Her next chapter lies in Washington, D.C., so we just had to put her skills to the test. 

Outside of the trial, we talk about Hanna's time at Boston University fighting for the "Survivor's Bill of Rights," her art business that's left a PHYSICAL impact on so many, and the tremendous losses she's overcome. 

Music used in this production (in order of appearance)
Lunar Cambridge - Please, take a seat - KGQ Season 1 Finale Theme 
Scott Buckley - Signal To Noise - Music powered by BreakingCopyright
Alexandra Tsikina - POLAR BEAR - Music powered by BreakingCopyright
Scott Buckley - Light in Dark Places - Music powered by BreakingCopyright
Scott Buckley - This Too Shall Pass - Music powered by BreakingCopyright
Scott Buckley - Freedom - Music powered by BreakingCopyright 

Chapters

• 0:00 Our show begins
• 2:27 Virtue Argumentation Theory
• 5:45 Survivor's Bill of Rights
• 24:45 Change through student government
• 33:05 Graduating with three majors
• 45:37 Hanna is subpoenaed
• 52:19 Andrew's trial begins
• 1:13:20 Case closed
• 1:15:05 Hanna's art buisness
• 1:17:35 Hanna loses her grandmother
• 1:24:13 Shortly after, she loses her father
• 1:33:55 Perseverance and adaptation from loss
• 1:40:30 Finding strength and pushing forward
• 1:44:20 Our purpose
• 1:55:40 Show end

Transcript

Nick Karmia 

Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to Karmia’s Got Questions. It's an absolute pleasure to be here with you, as always. Now, I might be taking a serious tone right now. I'll be completely honest with you, but I'll tell you why. That is because we are here at the season finale. This is the season finale of Karmia’s Got Questions. You've made it to the final show of season one, today. I'm not only going to immerse you in a powerful and inspirational story, but the ultimate listening experience it’s what we always strive to do, so thank you so much for tuning in. I'm telling you right now...  

What you hear in these next couple of hours is going to be something you'll never forget, and much of the reason for that is because of this week's guest. Ladies and gentlemen, let me break it down for you. Her name is Hanna Dworkin. She's an absolute star when it comes to economics, political science and philosophy. That's right, she majored in all three. She's experienced loss at tremendous levels but has continued to persevere and in combination with everything else she's accomplished so far. And we're going to be talking about it all today. She's a talented artist and an impactful leader straight from the Chicago Land area. Hanna Dworkin, welcome to KGQ.  

Hanna Dworkin 

Thank you. That was quite the intro. You can't see me, but I'm blushing. 

Nick Karmia 

Hanna, have you ever had an intro like that? A thunderous applause in the back? Like, I'm not hearing any clapping right now. I'm alone here in the studio, but I'll tell you something Hanna. I can hear it across the country. Across the globe. 

Hanna Dworkin 

You know, like, I've never had it, but I dream of it often, so I appreciate that you can hear it. 

Nick Karmia 

Fantastic. I mean, it is definitely here. There's no denying that. Hanna, thank you so much for coming on to the show here - season finale. Let's jump right in to the experience; to the questions. I want to start by asking you this, Hanna: As a student of philosophy, and this might seem like a pop quiz moment, this isn't gotcha journalism, Hanna. But I want to ask you, are you familiar with virtue argumentation theory? 

Hanna Dworkin 

No, I'm not. What is it? Tell me. 

Nick Karmia 

I will, I will happily explain it to you, OK? And for all those who are unfamiliar, it's the idea of maintaining a solid, virtuous nature within an argument. Now it sounds like I just took the words that make up the term and put it in definition. So let me break it down further there. OK, when? In an argument. Imagine yourself right. You're in this argument. It's important for both you and the person you're arguing with to assess one another's willingness to listen to each other's willingness to take a different viewpoint seriously. Your own humility and open mindedness. This is what you have to judge both yourself. In both the person you are in an argument with maybe just even a discussion or a debate. I mean these are incredibly important principles, right? I'm sure you've heard of something like this virtual argumentation theory. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Totally. Totally. 

Nick Karmia 

And so I want to start by asking you this, Hannah, when you think about the people maybe of our country today, maybe the people you've come across in life because you've involved, been involved in so many different avenues in life. Do you think most people carry these virtues? 

Hanna Dworkin 

That's a good question. That's a very big question. The first thing that comes to mind, this is my philosophy brain talking. This is what they teach us as philosophy students. Virtually something really difficult to define. So that's a hard question to answer. The first thing that comes to mind is something I learned in one of my first classes at BU on Aristotle. He has something called the doctrine of the mean, which is the theory of every virtue is a meaning between two polar opposites. So the example he gives is courage. Courage is a virtue that's between rashness and cowardice, and in every situation that has to be balanced of what mean between those two things is courage. So I think a lot of people think that they're acting virtuously and maybe they are, by their own standards, but it's it's a difficult, you know, umbrella to apply to everyone. And. I don't know exactly what you're getting at with the question of is it politics we're talking about? Is it everyday conversation? But I know in the in the contentious conversations I've had at my time at BU, and even before that. You know, when it comes to politics and difficult life conversations, people have different perceptions of virtue, so it's hard to approach conversations on that same plan. So I don't know if that answers your question, but that's definitely a difficult one to answer. I would. 

Nick Karmia 

Well, I'll tell you something, man. It's almost like you. You tried to battle my my term there. Doctrine of the mean you brought in your own definition. That was good. That was awesome. That's that. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Was definition not mine. 

Nick Karmia 

OK, got you. You don't you don't know him personally, you don't. You haven't had any. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Vacation out a few times, but it was quite a while back, so I'm not sure. 

OK. 

Nick Karmia 

Gotcha. Well, you know, when we talk about these principles and I would say I'm getting at both everyday conversations, political discussions, really everything across the board. But when we talk about these principles, it reminds. Me of the. Legislation you fought for inside Boston University that surrounded fighting against sexual misconduct on campus. Can you talk to me about the survivors Bill of Rights that was created during your time as Senate chair inside BU's Student Government? 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah, I can. Umm, this is something I'm really proud. Of. So it was actually started long before I was even a student at BU. This is a a bigger conversation about adjudication of sexual misconduct cases at universities across the country. You know, I I don't wanna bad talk. Be you be you has great systems in place for supporting survivors. But it could always be improved. And there are you know areas needed for improvement at my university and students again long before I was even there started this Bill of Rights which you know U mass and a few other schools. Maybe you did something similar. It's essentially supposed to be 1 document that in one place it outlines what students ideally want to see from our university. It's everything from the way that, again, sexual misconduct is adjudicated to the way that you know, once those decisions are made, they are actually executed and thought out holding both, you know the perpetuators and also survivors. Supporting them in every way possible. So this was a collaborative effort, started way before I was at BU, but it kind of stagnated, you know, students worked on it and then wouldn't really do anything. But. And when I came Senate show, that was one of my top priorities. You know, getting that talked about and getting it actually through Senate and unfortunately you know that issue is something that I personally encountered in college and, you know, a bunch of survivors came together to kind of write this document, fueled by their own experiences. By the way, that being either supported them or let them down. And it ultimately was passed. And I think one of the most difficult things about leadership, especially in a university setting when you're only there for a couple of years. Is that the things you start? You don't always get to see them finish and that's a difficult thing, but it's a good lesson. And so I think I worked for two years, very hard to finish the verbiage of it, have it written and have it presented. I got in the room with the Dean of Students, university president, introducing this bill and talking about long term and things. We'd like to see change. And I just hope that the younger students there can keep that going, keep that momentum going and that, you know, bigger change will come. It will continue on after me. 

Nick Karmia 

And so when you were in that room presenting this Bill of Rights, you know, you spent years of dedication and just your short time in office over there trying to make sure that this bill was taken seriously and to try and get it implemented within university policy when you were in that room specifically, though, presenting this did. You said it was the Dean of students. Was in there. And other university officials did the did you see that they kind of supported what you were putting together here. Did the university itself end up supporting this Bill of Rights? 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yes, but that is a hesitant yes. UM. 

Nick Karmia 

OK. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Again, it's a. Very complicated topic. I certainly don't want to paint it. In a worse light than it was. But the meetings are contentious. And another lesson I learned about. Politics at university is it really is like? A small town like. It's politics, you know, we're sitting there. They're kind of on the defense. A lot of people and universities pertain to sexual assault and how universities kind of support students in that, you know, the public facing of that can affect admissions and a lot of other things. I understand that. So the answer to your question is yes, but. The conversations weren't as straightforward as we would like XY and Z, and the answer was yes. There's always pushback. There's always university officials trying to water down the suggestions or change them, or to send them. But overall I. Would say they were productive conversations is that they were. They were receptive to the ideas, which is what matters the most. 

Nick Karmia 

Absolutely. Now, when you were talking about how this is an initiative that started before your time to be and you're kind of just carrying the torch here trying to make sure that these different things inside the bill are adopted at the university fighting for the. What? What were the the do you know what the rates of sexual misconduct that were happening on campus? Because that's I I figure that that's what this would spawn out of is like, wow, we have all this happening on campus. It's happened to you. It's happened to several people that brought their own personal stories. To try and. Create this Bill of Rights are there just high rates of this happening? Be use campus. 

Hanna Dworkin 

So. I don't know if I can give you the exact number of top of my head. I used to be able to a couple months ago when I was doing this, but it's all hyperlinked on the survivors Bill of Rights being does campus climate surveys every couple of years, surveying students to get these numbers. Now this is important. The numbers are staggeringly high, but not especially at you. The numbers are as high at universities across the country, like BU isn't, especially as not pervasive, especially at BU. It's just a very, you know, issue in all college campuses. It's obviously more prevalent amongst women, but it's men, women, everyone on college campuses at savingly high rates having sexual assault and harassment cases at the universities. 

Nick Karmia 

And when you, when you were looking at this data on sexual misconduct happening specifically on on bees campus? Was this a? Did you notice like a gradual increase in, let's say, you know, maybe the last 10 years of more and more sexual misconduct happening on this campus? 

Hanna Dworkin 

I'm not sure if I saw it over time. I don't know if the data was available. The Campus Climate Survey is a kind of new thing. They're doing it every few years now. It's, but it's always a prevalent issue and it always has been. I just don't know if I can answer that question fully right now. 

Nick Karmia 

Sure. Now here are some actual sections of the survivors Bill of Rights that I I thought, at least on the surface level, were both groundbreaking and and a bit unprecedented. I mean, like when I. Read through this. I was like, I've never heard of something like this. I mean, I'm not incredibly informed on the topic as a whole. When you talk about sexual misconduct happening on campuses across the country. But I just thought that they were. They were so interesting and so compelling. Here's one of them. It will protect financial aid packages, scholarships and grants for any lost tuition should the student need to withdraw or take a temporary leave of absence as a result of assault. It also includes protecting a student's transcript from receiving a W withdrawing. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Mm-hmm. 

Nick Karmia 

Should the student need to drop a class at a late date, here's another one. Those found responsible for sexual misconduct will have a mark on their transcript, even if they transfer colleges where these sections inside the. Still, it sounds like this fight is actually still ongoing, so these specific ones. I'm curious if those particular ones faced in the opposition. I know you're mentioning some watering down and maybe some people being receptive and some people not were. Were those sections adopted by the university at all? Were they even being? 

Speaker 

Yeah. 

Nick Karmia 

Considered. 

Hanna Dworkin 

It's just the ones that you just said were the most contentious. That's very interesting. I want to. Right, I helped write this but it was not just me. I know they said that, but I just want to say it again. This bill is a collection of dozens of anecdotes of students who had, unfortunately, those instances occur, and thus we were brought to write that in this bill, the financial aid month, actually a pushback. Also, because you know the contracts in place, so if you have to miss for a certain amount of time, your scholarship ceases. And it's it's a process to kind of work around those and try to work through those. So that's one of the elements that I hope people carry on that torch because unfortunately my time terminated there before we could fully look into that. Another example I'll give is the the bullet you just read about withdrawing from a class. That came from an anecdote of a student who was, unfortunately. Went through a sexual misconduct case, won their case and the assaulter was given a stay away order and that means they can't live in the same dorm as them. They can't attend the same classes as them and. Unfortunately, I, you know, I don't know the specifics of it, but B use system still allowed that person to sign up for a class with that person and. You know, if that case were to happen or if in the middle of a semester a case happens and that decision is made if a student wants to step out of that class, it shouldn't reflect poorly on their transcript and be as response. That was. That's a good point. But that's actually an issue on our end of our system. Our system shouldn't let that student in the class. And if anything, it should show in their transcript. So that's an instance of, you know, maybe that bullet wasn't directly addressed the way it. Was written there but. It called to attention of administrators that something was wrong and it was addressed in a different. 

Speaker 

OK. 

Hanna Dworkin 

So I but certainly said that was still a success. In that instance, but great bullets you brought up there. 

Nick Karmia 

And and that second one about those being found responsible for sexual misconduct, while the mark on their transcript, even if they transfer colleges like, do you, did you guys ever figure out what that would, you know, practically look like how exactly something would be put on a transcript and how that record would be maintained if they decided to leave? 

Hanna Dworkin 

See, I don't know that one. That one came from a different student who wrote that UM. I I never transferred, so I never got that specifically. Another issue of this is that it is so complex and and if you read through the bill, it's like so many pages long, there's a lot of parts to it, so there are certain people who are more, you know, experts in certain areas of it. I don't know that answer, though I don't know the INS and outs of transferring. Because of this. 

Nick Karmia 

Gotcha. Gotcha. It's just it's so interesting because when I had first read through this and you know, I'm definitely not as big as you know, I'm not huge in the the activism space. I don't feel like I do enough activism. You know, I I volunteer here and there, and I like to to comment on certain things, you know, especially. Back in Community College student government over there attended a lot of meetings and just the different things that were happening. But I was more there as a reporter with the student newspaper and just detailing what exactly student government working. And when it comes to issues like this, I I I can't help but think it just becomes this, you know, money versus people's health dilemma, you know, because when you you start like especially with the protecting financial aid packages, scholarships and grants, like you said, there's contractual obligations in there. And then when you talk about uh, you know, grants or scholarships, you know, if somebody towards the end of the semester decides to back out of their classes, let's say there's maybe a month left. You know, they've already the the school has already given that that money over, if it's a scholarship through the actual institution. And so you know, somebody backing out of that, you know, the the university might look at. Well, I I might have just wasted money on a student that could have that money that could have gone to somebody else. And so I feel like that's the first thing that might jump in mind to a lot of these university officials. But it's sort of it discounts that, well, somebody's currently in a crisis. You know. Umm, so I I can't finish my class because I've been in this incredibly uncomfortable and traumatic situation. So what is more important to you? Losing, let's say $10,000, which is not even a I wouldn't even call it a fraction. I would call it, you know, like a a drop in the pool of the millions of dollars that every institution. Across the country gets and so. 

Hanna Dworkin 

You has billions. Yeah. 

Nick Karmia 

Crazy, right? So like thousands of dollars, is that really going to change the financial situation of Boston University? You know, like, was that something in the opposition? Well, we can't just, you know, give money to students, have something unexpected happen to them, and then they could just back out of the contract. Like, was that a point? Being pressured on you guys. 

Hanna Dworkin 

That's a good question. Not directly. And that's pretty obvious. I think that would be a bad political move for them to. Say that so directly. It was. Inadvertently said quite frequently and. I don't you know, the administrators that I talk to. We're and continue to be great. Be has a new Dean of students who I really liked him and I had disagreements about this, but it was always cordial and he tried to find compromise. But I know that the Dean of students before him had a reputation of the opposite and I never got to speak with him. So you know it, it's. A difficult situation for everyone when that is what you just mentioned. Of you know, money taking precedence over the well-being of students. That is a a blanket president and tone of being as a whole, and also universities as a whole, especially private universities. When that is kind of the narrative and even if you have an administrator in the room who wants to help and who is hearing. But has to abide by that general narrative. It's very hard. It's hard to navigate for everyone and. I'm going to be transparent. I don't know the INS and outs of these contracts, and the administrators do so it's a kind of information asymmetry, where as a student activist you are trying to do things efficiently and effectively. And you said you write a 30 paid survivors Bill of Rights, you have it passed by a Senate of 100 students. You get in the room with the most important people in the. You know, institution, they tell you well, you're just not understanding things and that's very hard too, so. All of that to say my answer to your question is yes, but it was never that direct and I want to give credit to the people there who did. Try to help. And who you know? Read it in its entirety and took it seriously. So. 

Nick Karmia 

And and what makes this so much more difficult? And you outlined a lot of the the challenges right there, but something you mentioned before is you know a lot of these sections in the bill, especially this first one about protecting financial aid packages, scholarships and grants for students. Something that you had mentioned earlier is you know a lot of these come out as people coming to you or other members of the student government and just sharing personal stories. You know, they just don't want somebody else to have to go through. This. Because well, I wasn't able to get my scholarship refunded. I wasn't able to come back next semester and be able to provide for my education adequately on the financial. Died. I mean, was it difficult sort of knowing that these you know you you immerse yourself in the stories of these people and then you have things in the actual bill that address their direct situation so that it doesn't happen to anybody else? 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah. 

Nick Karmia 

But there's a lack of reception to some degree. On the other side like. That's got to be. Really, really provide a a serious imbalance in your mind and sort of unsettle you I'd image. Right. 

Hanna Dworkin 

I yes, that is such a good question and a good point. I think that was the most surprising and most difficult part of being a student leader at BU. You know, I wanna. I wanna approach this carefully and profess it with. I am not complaining and I'm so thankful I have this opportunity. But I would have students. Nick, you know Senate meetings or once a week I'd have at least two or three every week. Come up to me with these, not even about sexual misconduct, about mental health at the school, about professors being unfair, just students who were going through very deep, difficult, personal. I'm gonna say traumatic experiences. And. You know, again, I mean the side I always want to give the administrators credit where they deserve it because they do try, but also on the other hand, they fall short in a lot of ways and that's the reality. And when these students reach out to the mental health administrators and people that you who are supposed to help them and they're desperate and they can't get help, student leaders are who they. Don't you? And it would be me at the end of the summit meeting people coming up to me telling me these. Stories about, you know. What do I do? Why this happens? Sexual misconduct prevalent in my life? My friend is going through this. How do you suggest I support them? Who can you connect? Me to and. There's a bit of imposter syndrome in the back of my mind being like I am the same age as you. I am also a student. Like how do I handle this? And it took two years being in that position to be like I am prepared to help people and I was elected to help people. So I kind of took that question a bit broader than what you were intending I think, but that is a prevalent part of being a leader, especially on a college campus of sometimes having to tackle issues that are beyond your scope and just stepping up to the plate and telling yourself I'm capable, you know. 

Nick Karmia 

Wow. Absolutely. And. Now that your your time there inside of student government has come to a close. Where are you thinking that this Bill of Rights is going to go from here? 

Hanna Dworkin 

So. The way that Sudan government would be used laid out is kind of silly. It's very intricate and overly complicated. But Senate has eight committees. One of them is 16,000 strong, which is our sexual misconduct committee. The girl who was elected Senate chair after me. Her name is Tommy was my vice chair, and she's fantastic. So. You know, passing the torch is difficult neck, especially when you invest so much of your personal, you know, emotional bandwidth into something. But I have given her those resources and told her what to prioritize within it and the bullets you mentioned are some of those priorities. I just think it, you know, activism takes time and that's another really difficult thing. You gotta push and push until finally it gives. And I just hope that the students who worked on it with me and the new students entering the you can. Find the momentum that I left there to keep it going and to actually see change on campus. 

Nick Karmia 

And when you had first be, uh, got involved with student government were were you a freshman? Were you a sophomore? 

Hanna Dworkin 

So freshman year I was a part of the Mental Health Committee, which is a committee and Senate, but I don't think that counts because it was like during COVID it was all virtual. So I see my legitimate start of student government as my sophomore year when I was elected vice Chair of Senate. And then a junior and senior year, I was the Senate chair. 

Nick Karmia 

It's was. It was it interesting for you to see just, you know, you're starting off in this one committee. It's current completely virtually based. And like I said, not sure if that really counts. I mean like virtual virtual meeting. I mean virtual schooling. It's just so it's all that's a whole another thing. It's a whole another. 

Topic we could totally. 

Nick Karmia 

Get into, but did you see this sort of this like really interesting and like gradual scale of involvement that had had evolved over time for you? Like, did you ever, do you ever reflect back like, where you had started inside of the student government? And and then now pushing this incredibly comprehensive and important piece of legislation. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Well, it's a great question. It's really good asking questions like I can see. Why you're doing this? 

Nick Karmia 

Thank you. Well, that's why you know what the show is called, right, you understand that? 

Hanna Dworkin 

Questions. Yeah, I get it. But this is going to be a bit of a A. Long answer, but I'm really. Glad you asked this question. You know, in high school at Lamont, I was so involved, I was like class president. I had a bunch of things going on and then COVID hit and I spent a year and a half walked in my room by myself. And this is an anomaly because in student government there's a million different positions you could have. And only I think 9 people in leadership. And every single position you have to have experience and higher up of student government before you're elected to those positions. The Senate vice chair is the only position in all of leadership that doesn't require experience. And honestly, Nick, I applied to it thinking I wouldn't get it. And when I got it, I was kind of like, I don't know if I can swear, but I was like, oh, ****, I don't feel like I deserve this. And that was the first time in my life I really felt imposter syndrome. And it was so strong. Like to the point where I would have anxiety attacks before public speaking, I would not be able to sleep, but student government student government is extracurricular. I shouldn't be losing sleep over it, but I felt this immense weight put on my shoulders and I didn't feel like I not only was I strong enough, but I didn't deserve to have that and. It it was, I think my sophomore year of college was my most difficult, even with I'm sure we'll get to the topics of grief. But the heavy losses I endured my senior year was a whole different kind of strife. But at that point, I kind of regained my sense of self. Of my sophomore with that Imposter syndrome, I kind of lost that and. The survivors Bill of Rights was one of the first things that really it gave me something to grip on and pull myself up with and, you know, through my own experiences with sexual, you know, misconduct of my own, I really felt empowered and channeling that into something productive. And that was kind of what I tried to keep going and what. You know, it's one thing to prove other people wrong, but it's a whole thing to prove yourself wrong. And I think that's what I did with the servers, both rights and the other sitting government things as I kind of grew into that role. 

Nick Karmia 

When you talk about this, this impostor syndrome and this anxiety and and losing sleep over an extracurricular, I mean soon government super important, I mean that's that is the extracurricular I think to lose sleep over actually. And so there's nothing to be, there's nothing to be ashamed of there, especially when you're working on such important things stuff that's so significant. It's interesting. When I was. When I was putting together all of the the questions here, actually no, I wasn't. This is not scripted at all. This is all just coming to mind if everybody's listening. I was, I was actually thinking back because I think we're, I think we're two years apart. Part maybe one, maybe one. Yeah. Yes. We're just one year apart. 

Hanna Dworkin 

I think one you, I. Graduated in 2020. Yeah, you were 21, yeah. 

Nick Karmia 

Yeah. And so. I I think the first time I actually ever met you. Was a model. You went at Lamont High School? I think it was Carthage, actually. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah. 

Nick Karmia 

I think I'm. I think when we were over at the pool or something like. That. And you come on over. Got because we were brand new, I think there was a group of US brand new group of model you winners. You guys were experienced, you were the alphas. The elites in the building and then you you you said it to me and you were like come on over here. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah. 

Nick Karmia 

Was like, let me talk to you for a minute and I got. I got so nervous. I was like, is she gonna test me on the intricacies of vaccines available in Afghanistan? I was like, wow, I'm done. This is it. So, you know, it's really it's it's very human. Then to hear that you know you experience all these things and honestly, I feel like I have a hard time talking about them myself and for the longest time, I feel like I've always understood that, you know, like, I really enjoy public speaking. I love having really amazing conversations like this. And you know, when I go up on stage and if I don't feel nervousness, I feel like I shouldn't. Be there. Do you? Sure. Do you have that? That principle a little bit like I need to feel this nervousness since once you start talking, you start to cut through that anxiety when you're in front of the podium, whether you're on stage or just talking to a group of people, you start to understand well that. 

Speaker 

Dude. 

Nick Karmia 

Nervousness is kind of important. 

Hanna Dworkin 

You know what, Nick? I completely understand where you're coming from, but I feel the exact opposite, which I think is so interesting and I understand how you why you feel that way for me, I actually have a very definitive moment where. I appreciate what you just said of like, you know, coming from me, it seems like I wouldn't feel these things. And I I can see that like on paper, I do, public speaking all the time, but I get and I used to get incredibly nervous about public speaking, like I have panic attacks beforehand. And I don't say that word lightly and. I would get in my head with the opposite of what you just said of. I don't deserve to be here if I, you know, can't sleep the night before and everyone in the room expects me to be composed and ready for this. So it's kind of like we're two opposite ends of the same spectrum. That's interesting. But, you know, I had a moment where. In student government, when I was a sophomore, there was a group of students and the seniors, so they were the office to me. They were to knew I was to you in that instance and they were so eloquent, like literally like politician level speakers. But being their friend, I got to see the nervousness and the humanness behind that. It was kind of an eye opening experience for me of like everyone is just faking this like everyone is nervous. Everyone you know, even if like you just said, maybe you're not nervous, you're still doubting yourself and. That was kind of the key for me to getting over that, so. Every time I have public speaking now, I don't panic attacks, but I get nervous and I kind of try to embrace that and. Say everyone feels doubt to some capacity with things like this. An impostor syndrome is normal. So. Yeah, I'm open answers your question, but that's why I go. 

Nick Karmia 

You know, you keep. You keep saying that, Hannah, and you're given really amazing responses here. Very thoughtful and provoking comments and everything. I don't know if that answers your Hannah. You're doing fantastic. Just so you know, we'll cut this out. We'll cut this out of the podcast right here. We'll edit it out this little. You're. Doing great you. Don't have to feel like this. Kind of. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Like moves the point I was just making of, like, everyone doubts themselves, you know, so they appreciate the validation. They appreciate it. 

Nick Karmia 

Now you had just graduated from Boston University on a pre law track majoring in three different disciplines. Economics, political science and philosophy was was graduating with two degrees that encompassed so much knowledge, something you had. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah. 

Nick Karmia 

Plan from the beginning. 

Hanna Dworkin 

No. I I've always known that I wanted to be a lawyer. Not always, but like when I came into college, I knew I went in with that political science, philosophy joint degree, just because I thought that would prepare me well. But there was always a little voice in the back of my mind saying you're going to go to law school, but take some time off. And it wasn't until the losses I had my senior year that I was like, OK, I deserve time off. So my sophomore year, I added that ECON degree on which I'm not gonna lie. At first, I was kind of like, I'm gonna hate this, but it's practical. Like, I can get a job if I don't want to go to law school. And I I fell in love with it. Like, ECON was. My favorite of the three probably. And I graduated top of my class. I I did something right there, but and that came to serve me well because when I made that decision my senior year to take some time off, I have a job. I'm going to be starting in a few weeks now, which is my version of time off. I guess time off isn't the right phrase there. But. You know, it served me well. So no, that wasn't the plan from the beginning, but I'm happy it. 

Nick Karmia 

Ended up that way, you're going to be starting a job somewhere. Where is that happening? 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah, Washington, DC. 

Nick Karmia 

Never heard, never heard of that place. What is? 

That not. Whoa, hold on, it's. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Just small town, West Coast, you know. Yeah. Yeah, but. 

Nick Karmia 

Yeah, everybody knows each other, right? That's what are you doing? 

Speaker 

Sure. 

Hanna Dworkin 

So it's a little weird. I'm I'm going to be an economist. It's for a private firm, but the firm is hired by the US Department of Commerce and it does International trade litigation cases. So I'm just. I'm so thankful that it panned out this way, but it's half the time I'll be in the courtroom watching cases unfold and kind of helping there. The other half is analyzing economic data as an economist, so it will prepare me for law school, but also give me some experience in other realms that I find interesting. So excited. 

Nick Karmia 

That's amazing. Have you done any work before where you're in inside of a courtroom? 

Hanna Dworkin 

No, and I'm so excited for that. No, you know, in college and internships with Senator Durbin, which was awesome and a couple of other nonprofits and things like that, but never a courtroom. So I'm excited. 

Speaker 

Wow. 

Nick Karmia 

When was the last time you were in a courtroom, Hannah? 

Hanna Dworkin 

Jury duty like. Last year, so probably that my answer. 

Nick Karmia 

Yeah. Now were you? I'll tell you something I told when I got jury duty. And I was so angry, by the way, Hannah, when they didn't select me, I made it through the very final round and they didn't select me. They didn't select me, and I was ****** because I'm actually somebody who would been very excited, would been very excited to be a part of a jury. 

Hanna Dworkin 

And. 

Nick Karmia 

And be the arbiter of a guilty or innocent verdict. I would have, I would have been. I would have been excited for that. You're participating in the American criminal justice process. What about how many people were like, what are you talking about? What do you mean? It's not exciting. You lose a whole day. And I'm like, I don't. I'm ready to go in. 

Hanna Dworkin 

True. 

Nick Karmia 

Were you excited for jury duty? 

Hanna Dworkin 

It's funny because I did the exact same experience as you. I didn't get to do it. They told me to go home. I wasn't sure I wanted to do it, and I mean, I think that says a lot like. 

Ohh. 

Hanna Dworkin 

The fact that we would find interesting something like that is good. I think people should, you know, like. I I was slapped down, to say the least. 

Nick Karmia 

But I just I know it was the I know. I just know it was the prosecutor. I know he didn't like me when he was questioning me. He asked me a couple of questions. Hey, where you from? With your family? Like, you know, I shared some very personal. Anecdotes. OK with them really level with them and he still and he didn't choose me and I was. So I I cried that night, Hannah. I cried that night. 

Speaker 

Yeah. 

Hanna Dworkin 

I do. Are you a police major? What's your major? 

Nick Karmia 

I'm journalism. I'm journalism. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Ohh that makes perfect sense. OK OK. 

Nick Karmia 

Yeah, this is me, man. I'm the storyteller of the next generation. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah, you know what? Earlier you made a comment about. You feel like you don't do activism enough. I would say journalism is an act of activism. You should think about that. 

Nick Karmia 

Well, thank you. Thank you, philosopher Dworkin. I really appreciate that. That's. Good. Yeah, I got you. 

Speaker 

Ohh. 

Nick Karmia 

Now talk to me about this pre law track you're on. I'm I'm unfamiliar with what the lawsuit and journey looks like, or so you're planning on attending a law school soon. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Uh. In two years, so a bit of a break. But yeah, OK. 

Nick Karmia 

And so you'll fulfill that time those two years with you know what you're doing in DC, other internships, other different. 

Jobs, yes, yes. 

Nick Karmia 

OK. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Probably that same job for two years, yeah. 

Oh, really? Yeah. 

Nick Karmia 

Wow. So international trade for two years. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yes. 

Nick Karmia 

In the courtroom in the firm. 'S office. That's exciting. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah. Thanks. I'm excited. 

Nick Karmia 

Have you already picked out a place to stay in DC? 

Hanna Dworkin 

Not yet. I'm moving there with a few of my friends and we're looking for apartments in a few weeks. They do it pretty, pretty late, like only a couple weeks before you move in. You start to look so. 

Nick Karmia 

OK. And so you mentioned this international trade, it's it, it sounded like it wasn't something you're you're incredibly, it's not like the the first type of law that you would pick and so you know my question would be are, are there different types of law you'd consider going into or is this one or is there one specific type you're set on? 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah. No, I don't know what type where I want to be. I am asked this question very often and I try to be as honest as I can. I think I want to go into law school with an open mind. That's why like when I apply to jobs, I applied to family law, corporate law, anything I possibly could. I've always found interest in things like this, like the econ side of me really likes fiscal policy, trade, things like that, but I don't want to limit myself. I don't know what type of where I want to be, so we'll see. 

Nick Karmia 

You don't know. 

Wall, Tyson. Have you ever watched that show? Suits I have. 

Hanna Dworkin 

I've watched this first season, but it was a while ago but. 

Yes, you've watched just. 

Nick Karmia 

The first season. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah, I didn't love it. I don't know people. I was like, what the hell we'd expect you to like it, but. 

Nick Karmia 

OK. Well, because I've heard that's a part of the syllabi. Actually, in every class that you go in, in law school, they they tell you like you watch a different season every month or so that you every like. So I'm not even sure what the break. Is it a semester thing at law school do you do you go in fall 2024? 

Hanna Dworkin 

And then, yeah, I think so. I think so. 

Nick Karmia 

OK. Because you just. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Honestly, like I I probably don't know as much as I should. I'm not gonna. You these two years are going to be a time for me to do research and grind that else out, so we'll see. 

Nick Karmia 

When you had first got this position, you received the notice were you, were you excited, were you? Were you scared about this next part of your journey? 

Hanna Dworkin 

UM. So there's also a bit of a story here. You're asking really great questions, so. I was very anxious about finding a job because the job market right now is horrendous. Horrendous. But I was actually given a job offer. And it was supposed to start a couple of weeks ago. It was at a family law firm in new. York City now. I accepted it because the pay was great. I won't lie and I was anxious about finding security in a job, so I kind of jumped the gun and accepting it. And I never saw myself living in New York City just intuitively. I was like, I don't. Want to live there? UM and also my start date fell on the anniversary of my dad's death. The one. And so I was like this just I don't want to start that day. It just doesn't feel right to me. So I made a very difficult decision to rescind my acceptance and say I no longer want. To do this job. 

Wow. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Various things I've ever done because it's like essentially giving up a year's worth of salary for a job market where it's not guaranteed to get a job right now. And this was also three days before I graduated. So at a very stressful time. General and. You know, I'm very thankful for the people in my life who all supported me in that decision and affirmed that I would find something else. So I kind of went on a spree of applying and I'm so thankful I did that because this job is exactly what I wanted. It's where I want to be, what I want to be doing. And it's just a testament of like, sometimes your intuition is leading you in a certain way and you gotta listen, even if it's a difficult path to go down. So when I got that job offer, Nick, I rejoiced. I was very, very excited. Yeah. So yeah. 

Nick Karmia 

Yeah. What would you have been doing at this family law firm in new? Work. 

Hanna Dworkin 

It would have been a paralegal job, so just assisting the head lawyers there kind of acting as an assistant in court, it would have been interesting. I just don't. I don't think I would have felt as fulfilled as I would feel in in this role. 

Nick Karmia 

And so DC is the the dream landscape for you. That's where you'd like to to live. 

Hanna Dworkin 

You know, I don't have a perception of where I'd want to live long term, but I've always seen myself spending some time in DC. And this period of my life seems the perfect time to do that. So yeah. 

Nick Karmia 

Yeah, that's that's such a a crazy situation you found yourself in. You get this. This nice job offer in a place that you. You're not exactly the most excited about when it comes to. The. To living there, but you get the job. Offer the the pay is good and it would. It would still be a very interesting experience. But you, you turn it down because of this, this tragedy that that happened a year ago, right? 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah. 

Nick Karmia 

Yeah. And so then this other offer comes. Then. And does that, does that come in like a a couple of weeks after you had rescinded your your acceptance for this family law firm? 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah, it was a few other it was like. Three weeks later. 

Nick Karmia 

Three weeks later, OK. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah. So pretty recently it was recent development. 

Nick Karmia 

Well, let me ask you this, Hannah, have you? How many? How many mock trials would you say you've? Done in your life. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Mock trials. Honestly. Only one and it was. In. A class I had never done, like a mock trial team before. 

Oh. 

Nick Karmia 

OK. Was it was it a mock trial at Boston University? 

Hanna Dworkin 

No, I'm trying to think of where it was, I don't remember. Honestly, I think it might have been model you and Nick. In high school. We did like some simulation of a trial once it's vaguely there in the back of my memory. 

OK. 

Hanna Dworkin 

No, it was in. Do you know Priestley? Remember Priestley? 

Nick Karmia 

Yes, the priest. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah, it was in one of his classes. He did like a mock trial. That's. What it was. 

Nick Karmia 

OK. Do you remember what the case was? 

Hanna Dworkin 

No idea. Oh, it was. Yes, I do. It was Watergate. It was a. 

It was Watergate. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah, it was like a simulation of Watergate or something like that. 

Speaker 

Is that? 

Hanna Dworkin 

I I don't remember what are they? Have something to do with it? Something do. 

Nick Karmia 

Sure. OK. Something with Nixon, he was involved somehow in Priestley's mock trial. 

Hanna Dworkin 

I just remember I was on the side of having to defend Nixon, and I was like, Oh my God, I can't do this. 

Nick Karmia 

No, I mean that would be, it's a pretty difficult situation, I would say. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah, yeah. Why do you? 

Nick Karmia 

Ask. Well, I'm I'm curious. Hannah. I'm. I'm wondering. And this is. This a bit. This would be a bit of a surprise, a bit of a curveball I'd be throwing at you, but I I've I've I've said something up here that I think is quite exciting. OK, I'm wondering if you would be willing. 

Fine. 

Nick Karmia 

To. Go into a mock trial with me right now. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Ohh about what? 

Nick Karmia 

OK, so here's the deal. I don't know. Alright, I know this is. Hey, this is a bit of a surprise, but because our student I wanted to, I wanted to. I wanted to give you a bit of a, you know, a warm up here, right. Like you said two years and that's OK two years. 

Until you head to law school. But but I'd love to. I I this is a warm up. This is a this would be a warm up to that. OK. It's very basic. Criminal trial. 

Nick Karmia 

That involves time travel, OK? 

Hanna Dworkin 

OK. 

Nick Karmia 

Now I have a judge on standby and I also have the person who's been charged with the crime on standby as well. So the way that this would work and the judge is going to. Point it all again, but I'll break it. Down for you here. The judge will come in. They'll detail the case. And you can choose because I'm such a nice guy. Such a nice guy. You could choose to be the prosecution or the defense. You could choose right now if you're willing to just jump right in. 

But you can choose whichever. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Well, what are the specifics like is this? A A hypothetical we're talking about. 

Nick Karmia 

This is this is this is a hypothetical case. This is a hypothetical case. Yes, it's not real. Well, the people we're talking to are going to be real people. You know, this is actually going to be a a judge in the. Call. 

With us, yeah. 

Hanna Dworkin 

OK, OK. Right, yeah. Yeah, OK, sure. I'm hesitant. Lian, yes. 

You're in. You're in, OK. 

Nick Karmia 

OK, good. Alright, this is good. This is exciting. OK, this is first ever mock trial segment I've done on the show. OK, season finale. Mock trial right here. Anna, this is once again very historic moment for the show. OK. Yes. And so like I said, the judge will break it all down again. And. We'll both give opening statements and then we'll, we'll examine the witness will question the witness and then we'll give closing statements. It'll be a very short trial I think. And and then the judge will read the verdict. 

Hanna Dworkin 

OK. 

Nick Karmia 

On what's going on? You're interested. You're interested in this? OK, great. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah, I'm hesitantly interested. 

Nick Karmia 

No, I understand. So I don't know this this part of me breaking down the mock trial. I I'll probably like. 

Maybe I will, maybe, I don't think I'll. I won't cut this part out. I won't cut this part out cause it's. It's funny, it's just. 

Nick Karmia 

I'm just throwing this into your lap. OK. OK, so I'm waiting for the judge. 

Hanna Dworkin 

OK. 

Nick Karmia 

To join. OK, the witnesses here, which is fantastic. I'm waiting for the judge to join Hannah. How? Yeah. Yeah. No, we're bringing in. This is these are real people. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Ohh, these are like two other people. Like this is crazy. OK. 

Nick Karmia 

And me and the judge, well, the judge is going to be the the overseer of this. I'm sorry. It's I'm talking really slowly cause I'm I'm messaging both the judge and the witness right now. The witness is in. 

Hanna Dworkin 

No, we're good. We're good. 

Nick Karmia 

Mint, when you join, just telling my, well, I don't know if he's going to be your client or mine will. 

Hanna Dworkin 

I'll be defense. I'm in the mood to. Defense you want to. 

Nick Karmia 

Be defense. OK, that's fine. That's completely fine, Hannah. 

Hanna Dworkin 

I'm I'm kind of scared to just blindly defend someone, but I'm feeling eventless. 

Oh, you got you got. You're gonna be fine. 

Nick Karmia 

You're gonna be fine. You got this. There's no doubt about it. Andrew, can you hear? 

Us. Yeah, OK. 

Nick Karmia 

Fantastic, Andrew. Thank you for appearing today. At today's trial, we're just waiting for the. The judge to join so if you can go ahead and mute my friend, I will not my I don't know you're. I'm the prosecution, actually. So we're going to need you to mute Andrew, OK. 

What is? 

Nick Karmia 

Going on with this judge. And need him in here. I need him in here. OK, Hannah. So as the defense, you know, like I said, this is a case that is all about a potential. There is a potential. Improper use of time travel, but the judge is going to break. That down for. Us right now, Judge Ginsburg, can you hear us? 

Yep. 

Nick Karmia 

Fantastic. Thank you for coming, Sir, I really appreciate it for joining us virtually. OK, awesome. All right, just so I'll, I'll break down the the roles for us here. I know judge, you're very, very well experienced in the judicial process, but just I'll break down the rules for us real quick. The judge is going to oversee the trial, Hannah. It's going to ensure fairness. And deliver the verdict at the end. I will argue that Andrew's actions should be he should be convicted with. Crime. And then the defense you, Hannah, will argue that Andrew's actions are he's he's an innocent. He's an innocent man, OK. And Andrew is going to be our witness that we will cross examine halfway through. So judge, if you can go ahead and introduce. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Wait, wait, wait. Wait. Wait. Wait, wait, wait, wait. What's talking again before we begin? This is supposed to be a warm up for law school. 

Nick Karmia 

Yeah, yeah, go ahead, Hannah. 

Right. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. 

Hanna Dworkin 

What's the relationship between you and Judge Ginsburg? How do I know y'all are colluding? 

Nick Karmia 

We're not. No, no. This is a guy I found. You know, I just messaged him. I've never communicated with Judge Ginsburg before. Never. I've never talked. Ever. I promise you. I I will send you my files. All of my files. I will. We will share evidence and discovery. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Ever. 

Nick Karmia 

No doubt about it. 

Hanna Dworkin 

OK, sounds good. 

Nick Karmia 

OK, great. So, Judge Ginsberg, if you can go ahead and introduce the case, explain the rules of the trial and provide the details of the case itself, please go ahead, Sir. 

All right, so good afternoon. Welcome to the trial. Today, we're going to determine whether Andrew's actions well, time traveling cause the current world conflict before we proceed with the opening statements. Let me explain the details of the case. Andrew is a college student college student who, along with his friends, discover device. 

Alright. 

That it allows time travel. They use this device to travel back in time to attend the renowned music festival. During the festival, Andrew developed romantic feelings for one. Of the friends Helen. Who reciprocated his feelings, however, Andrew got nervous and declined an opportunity to kiss her after returning to the present, Helen lost interest in Andrew, and he felt he missed his chance at true love. Andrew then chose to go back in time alone to try and change this outcome. He succeeded in kissing Cohan and upon returning to the present, found himself dating her. However, the president was number longer the. Same a war had. Broken out between the United States and England, Russia and China, sparked by the assassination. Of a world. Leader at the same music festival, millions of capabilities are being reported worldwide. The central question before us is whether Andrew's actions are the cause of this. Global global conflict. Or if it is merely a coincidence, the prosecution and defense will present their cases and we will hear testimony from Andrew himself. Afterward, I will deliver a verdict based on the evidence presented. Let's begin with the opening statements prosecution. 

Nick Karmia 

Again, I will go ahead and do that momentarily. Judge Hannah, do you have any questions about the case? Would you like the judge to reread anything for you? 

Hanna Dworkin 

This is crazy. So we don't have any info yet on what occurred. In the present day leading up to the war. That was not given. 

Nick Karmia 

Well, I'll tell you something. You're you're you're gonna have more than enough time to ask Andrew any questions that will that you would that you would think would help your case for him. Favor help. 

Hanna Dworkin 

OK. 

Nick Karmia 

Him. So we'll. 

Hanna Dworkin 

OK. 

Nick Karmia 

I'm going to go ahead and and give my opening statement, Hannah. And I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna do it, you know, in a in a very a good fashion here. So if you want to prepare somewhat of an opening statement for yourself. Because you're gonna be up next right after me. OK? Sure. Alright. Fantastic, Anna. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Sure. 

Nick Karmia 

Your Honor, Judge Ginsburg, thank you for being here with us. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, anybody who's listening right now, Karma has got questions season finale. KG Q. Thank you for. Tuning in live. We have millions of jury members currently overseeing the case here with us this afternoon today. We will prove. That Andrews reckless use of a time travel device directly led to the assassination of a world leader and the subsequent global war. Andrew's actions were irresponsible. And have caused unimaginable suffering worldwide. We will show this afternoon that Andrew's decision to alter the past for personal gain had catastrophic consequences. 

Speaker 

OK. 

Nick Karmia 

OK. That concludes my short opening statement there, Hannah, I will hand it over to you. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Well, first of all, thank you everyone for being here. I this is really a big let down for me to hear all the information I've been given. We have Andrew here, just a young college student and he discovers a time travel machine. He discovered it. It's his decision on how to use it. Why aren't we prosecuting the person who made the device? Who was in charge of it? None of that information was given. Andrew here is just a scapegoat. He was a young man in love. I don't think that's a crime. And of course, heaven. Or blaming women. For wars and we saw that this is because of Andrew. Had him fell in love with him and now there's a war. I don't see the connection. Thank you. 

Nick Karmia 

OK, Judge, please continue. 

All right. We are now going to move into witness examination. Prosecution. You have the four. 

Speaker 

Uh. 

Nick Karmia 

Andrew, could you go ahead and unmute for us? 

Speaker 

Hmm. 

Nick Karmia 

You hear me? OK, Andrew. Yep. You're right, man. 

Just a little razzle by the soul. 

Nick Karmia 

I understand. No, I understand. I just had some questions for you by the way. My name is Nick Karmia practicing prosecute state prosecutor for the district of. In any case, Andrew, thank you for being here. Thank you for appearing before us today in this trial. First off, Andrew, can you explain? Why you chose to use the time travel device a second time without informing your friends? 

I didn't find it pertinent to inform, you know, my entire friend group of this decision was a was a personal matter. I'm sure you don't inform everyone in your life about the personal issues between you and another person, or any actions that you're going to take that may, you know, conflict with their beliefs. I think that's that's my right. Or. 

Nick Karmia 

To not inform everyone of everything I do. So you are confirming with us today and before the jury that you did travel back alone without informing your friends. 

That's correct. 

Nick Karmia 

Now, did you consider the potential consequences of altering the past before you went back in time? 

The the life of one person. You know the the personal relationships that I hold, you know, I I firmly believe that the the personal relationships of one person, especially someone who's not particularly famous, infamous or noteworthy in the public. Would alter too much of the present. In my opinion. I may have taken that into consideration, but I was thinking of. Other things at. 

Nick Karmia 

The time you may have, you may have taken the consequences into consideration, but you were thinking of other things at the time. 

Again. I'd like to emphasize that I am just a single individual. Of no particular. Public regard. I think that necessarily my life before this, none of you have heard of my name before this case. Before any of this occurred. The idea that I could go back. Do what I. Was seeking to do and that it would not affect a majorly within the world. Was not a, not a far fetched one in my mind. 

Nick Karmia 

Well, anybody who decides to go back in time to the past to change events, Andrew, regardless of what their status is as a person in society. It doesn't, I. Mean. 

They could still. 

Nick Karmia 

Change things. They don't have to be any kind of. They don't have to have a particular status, wouldn't you agree? 

I suppose so, but if. If I was to do something of of major importance. Wouldn't you say that would be a different? You know objective in the past I didn't kill anyone. I didn't push anyone in front of the train. I didn't pull the trigger. I went and I changed the events of a conversation between two people. That's what I see myself doing. 

Nick Karmia 

Well, as the judge outlined in the details of the case, this same music festival that you went back to is where a world assassin, well, is where an assassination of a world leader. Had occurred were were you aware? Of the historical significance of the musical festival you attended. 

How could I be? I think things like this, and especially to people like me, are usually unknown. I don't think I would have ever known about any such thing and would have affected anything. Could I have changed it in any way? Even if I if I knew that I'm not a soldier, I'm not. How could I have known any of this? 

Nick Karmia 

So you don't believe that your actions at the festival could have influenced the events that led to the war? 

I truly, I don't see how I I don't. I'm just a person who wanted to change a conversation with someone and. You know, obviously that affected my personal life, but the idea that I could have, you know, led to the deaths of all these people, doesn't that take the the blame out of the hands of, of all the people who led to this, the the assassin themselves, the the world leaders who decided to to go to war and to change the lives of millions of people around the world. Aren't you taking the blame away from them, putting it on one person? Just me. 

Nick Karmia 

Confirm for me right here the details of this case. Andrew, if you could. So. When you went back in time and Helen gave you the opportunity to kiss her. You declined to do so. 

That's. 

Nick Karmia 

Is that correct? That's correct. OK. And so then you went back to the present. Regretted your decision and then? After you've gone back to the present, the first time, was there a war occurring? 

Not to my knowledge, no. 

Nick Karmia 

And so then you go back to the past. Change the decision to decline the kiss with Helen. Come back to the present and now there's a war worldwide war happening, correct? 

That's correct. 

Nick Karmia 

OK. How did you? How did you kiss Helen? 

Andrew, I don't see the relevance in this question. 

This. 

Nick Karmia 

Describe that to me, Andrew. It's important for the case. 

I went over, we had our same conversation. When my past self and left eye I. Changed it in a way in which you know. I did what I should have in the first place. 

Nick Karmia 

What do you like about Helen, Andrew? 

I think she's a beautiful, sweet, caring woman. And. I don't regret that I'm with her now. I think that I made. In my personal life, the right decision, I think she makes me a better person. 

Nick Karmia 

Do you know what the last name of do? You know the last name of Helen? 

I believe Rosenbaum. 

Nick Karmia 

It's Ginsburg. I'm going to conclude my question now. Defense, the witness is yours. 

Hanna Dworkin 

With O Ginsburg is in Clarence Ginsburg. Nick. 

I'm sorry. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Or is it? Ginsburg is in Clarence Ginsburg of our judge. 

Nick Karmia 

Hannah the the witness is yours. Please go ahead. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Interesting. OK, this is so interesting. Hey, Andrew, how you holding up? OK, I got you. Don't worry. So. 

Nick Karmia 

Could be better. 

Hanna Dworkin 

I'm just trying to get a better picture of. What went on here? How did you come about this time travel device? 

The. The exact details are a little unclear to me, but I I came upon. It when I was with. My friends found it together and you know an old box somewhere, and once we learned what the device could do, we. Started using it. 

Hanna Dworkin 

OK, so you didn't make the device? 

Now. 

Speaker 

No. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Your friends didn't make the. 

Device not to my knowledge, no. 

Hanna Dworkin 

OK. Did it look like it was hidden buried? Is it a box similar? 

It looked forgotten. But I don't know if it was necessarily hidden. 

Hanna Dworkin 

OK, now let's. Forget the time travel device for a second. Let's go back in time and when you? Not actually go back in time. Not a proper. Word to the. Trial here. When you were about to kiss Helen, but then you didn't walk me through the rest of that day. What did the rest of your day look like after that let down. 

She acted a bit distant. We was with my friends at the time and we continued to listen to this historic, you know, Music Festival was an amazing day. Obviously I was a little shaken up after that, after what I thought was the end of the romantic endeavor. And then eventually we went back to the present. 

Hanna Dworkin 

OK. And there was number World War, no assassination at this point? 

No. 

Hanna Dworkin 

OK, now you go back in time. Uh. When you went back in time. Did you find your former self and coax him to approach him differently, or to present you kiss Helen? 

I. Found a way to distract my former self so that he was not at that present moment with Helen and I acted as my current self. 

Hanna Dworkin 

OK. And tell me the series of events that followed that kiss up until the assassination of that dictator. From your perspective. 

Well, we just spent the rest of. The time you know. Talking as as as a new couple, you know, it felt like something the beginning of a of a romance was occurring. You know, we we couldn't get out of each other's sight. We we went and danced and and sang along to the songs and. I can't recall anything else we may have left before anything happened, but we did return to the. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Present center and how did you find out about the dictators death? 

I only through research back in the present I I don't know necessarily know many of the details, but I've just been going through some news articles. I I truly had no idea anything was going on until a day or two after. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Got it. So you were with Helen the entire day? Theoretically, at the point of this dictator being assassinated, you were together, and neither of you were involved in this assassination. 

No, not at all. Neither of us. You know, I I don't. Even think either of us. Have held a gun before. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Got it. So what I'm hearing is you stumble upon a machine you didn't make, so you're not responsible for what it does. You go back in time, a dictator is assassinated, but you are not involved in it, and neither is the woman who went back in time to kiss. And you are on the defense here for causing a war. Am I correct? 

Seems to be what? I think. 

Hanna Dworkin 

And the last name of Helen is. Ginsburg and our judges last name is. 

Ginsburg. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Do you think that's interesting? 

I truly didn't know the significance of that beforehand. 

Nick Karmia 

That's speculation, your honor, speculation. Sorry you added. 

Hanna Dworkin 

I think I'll, I think I'll yield my rest of my time to our objective judge here. Thank you. 

Well, now we're going to hear. Closing statements so the prosecution will be. 

Nick Karmia 

Thank you. Your honor. Your Honor, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, live listeners from across the globe, carmela's got questions. This is my this is my first case, but I'm very proud of the picture we've painted for you here today. And. I'd like to give my my closing statement now. The evidence clearly shows. That Andrew's actions in the past had a direct impact on the present. By interfering with a critical moment in history, this music festival. That he had returned to when he went back in time that now had a world leader assassinated. As he found out in the present. Andrew set off a chain reaction that led to this assassination of a world leader and ultimately. Global war millions of casualties worldwide, as the judge has outlined in the case opening, we urge you jury to hold them accountable for his reckless behavior. That concludes my opening statement. Closing closing statement. Excuse me. 

Hanna Dworkin 

OK. 

Right for the defense. 

Hanna Dworkin 

OK. Thank you. Wow, this was a. Really riveting day here together. Thank you for everyone being here. You know, we were told a lot of stories today. We heard a lot of things. But not much was proven. Here in America, we have innocent until proven guilty, Mr. Eval heard of that? And Andrew here. Is not guilty of much. He's guilty of being nervous. He's guilty of being in love. He's guilty of stumbling upon him and machine that perhaps, as a young boy he didn't know the full extent to which it could cause harm. You know, perhaps he is guilty of that, but that's not what we're here to discuss. Really. We're here to discuss a war, and Andrew and. Did not cause this war. Nothing that the prosecution has asked has proved that Andrew's actions have definitively been the reason that this happened in the first place, that this war still occurred or disproven. So All in all. Again, I'm going to return to my opening statement of. Andrew here is a scapegoat to a lot of other issues occurring. He was. A young man in. Love and let me ask you, is that a crime? Thanks. That's my statement. 

Nick Karmia 

Right. I think the judge here is going to take a moment to deliberate on the verdict while we're waiting for that, we'll give him a little bit of time. Hannah, let's step out of the courtroom here. How? How are you? How are you feeling about this? 

Hanna Dworkin 

This is really fun. I will say, do you get on the spot like this? It was a good exercise. My brain feels stretched. 

Nick Karmia 

I think you did a fantastic job and I'm. I'm not saying that as the prosecutor right now. I'm just saying that as a friend, as an ally, as the prosecutor, I would say, you know, you're you're done. Like you're absolute. Really screwed here and I'm just telling you right now and we'll wait for the judge to return and give the verdict, which I'm very confident will be in my favor. I've never lost a case before. In fact, I'm zero on zero, so this will probably be my opening case. Will really get me or really get me connected to a lot of high level law firms. Maybe down in DC, maybe we'll see each other there sometime, Hannah. So I I really do. I really do wish you luck on this one, but you're confident you're confident. In your ability today. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Uhm, I feel like I did the best I could given the resources that were given to me. And then, you know what, Nick, if the judge sides with you, I'm just gonna file for a recase because the fact that the judge is related to Helen's conflict of interest for sure. So. 

OK. All right. 

Nick Karmia 

Well, you know, once again I think that's that's speculation. I mean two people can have the same last name but be unrelated, you know. And I feel like I don't mind that actually pretty well in my case. But you decided to bring it up, Hannah. You know, even though the evidence. Didn't really have any evidence there. That's OK. Hey, you know what, Hannah? That's fine. That's alright. If you want to, you know, connect two dots. That's cool. I I got nothing against that. I think the judge is is ready to come back. In here. Awesome. 

Well, on that note, after considering the arguments and the evidence presented, I find that, well, Andrew's actions may have influenced certain events. It's not reasonable to hold him solely responsible for the global conflict. The war is the result of numerous factors and blaming one individual is there. 

Speaker 

Ohh. 

I find Andrew not guilty. 

Hanna Dworkin 

That's unbelievable light that's on. 

Justice justice has been served today. 

The Andrew Andrew you not understand. You can't do that. Judge, can we can we? Let's. 

Nick Karmia 

We're going to have to cancel an appeal. There can't be an I mean, I'm going to have to. I'm filing. An appeal right now it's not going to. 

Gonna happen. 

OK. 

Nick Karmia 

All right. That's it, huh? Hannah wins. Wow, that's impressive. OK, Judge Ginsburg. Andrew, thank you so much for tuning in. Andrew, I wish you the worst. You have a great rest of your life, my friend. And. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Congratulations. I'm glad that justice is served. 

And you stay out of trouble. 

Nick Karmia 

Just stay out of trouble, Andrew, huh. Once you hand over that. 

Hanna Dworkin 

So great. 

Nick Karmia 

Device to the department. 

Hanna Dworkin 

I hope you. And Helen, have a fantastic teacher together. I'd like an invite to the. Wedding, Sir. 

Nick Karmia 

Yeah, sure. 

Alright. 

Nick Karmia 

See you guys. Thank. 

You alright? Thanks for having us. See you. 

Yes. 

Nick Karmia 

OK, Hannah well. 

Fantastic job. Let's get back to the show. Let's get back. To the show. 

Hanna Dworkin 

That was hilarious. 

Nick Karmia 

Back to the show here. Got more questions for you. Here we go. Hannah, let's start with this transition right out of that, because I I don't really want to talk about that verdict. I'll be completely honest with you. 

Hanna Dworkin 

OK. I'm sure that was hilarious, OK? 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Nick Karmia 

Now, I'm glad you had a fun time. Awesome. So you've run your own art business since you were 14 years old and you sold hundreds of different pieces. You've designed logos for business. 

Aaron. 

Speaker 

This. 

Nick Karmia 

And have had some of your artwork displayed in Washington, DC on Capitol Hill, which you'll be there shortly. Again for this new job, I saw that you had over 400 sales on your Etsy shop. Yeah, were many of those designs you had on Etsy used by people for their own personal tattoos. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah, they were. 

Nick Karmia 

You have a permanent mark on so many. Other people, 400 people. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah, it's pretty cool. And that that's 400 of like the our post designs on TikTok and people would buy them, but I did probably another 100 custom commissions at least so. 

Nick Karmia 

That is amazing. Now I saw that there weren't any new pieces up on the shop. And yeah, I'm a little concerned about that. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah. 

Nick Karmia 

Yeah, I might need a tattoo very soon here. Hannah, if I were to put a tattoo on my right elbow, what would you pick? 

Hanna Dworkin 

Ohh, I don't think I can answer that question I'm I'm a big believer in I think. I'll have any. Tattoos. My mom will kill me, but. You know, maybe like one day, but tattoo should be very personal and that's why I like I love very simplistic designs. But people would give me either a story or a song or just something they'd want symbolized. And I would try to make. It very simple. So I don't think I know you well enough. I'd have to get to know you to make it more personal. 

Nick Karmia 

Like do like. A tarot reading with me or something like that really connect with. Me on a spiritual level. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Exactly. Yes, exactly. 

Nick Karmia 

Now when it comes to this artistic side of who you are, this creativity you put on the page through so many different mediums, you know, whether it's tattoos, whether it's paintings or drawing, all these different mediums of art, I understanding that your grandmother was an artist. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah. 

Nick Karmia 

As she always served as an inspiration for this passion, you have for art. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. 

Nick Karmia 

And and right around this time, year ago, your grandmother passed away. Could you describe to me who your grandmother was? 

Hanna Dworkin 

That's a big question. My grandma. Was an amazing person. Amazing. She was an artist and I think. When you say that someone is an artist. To me, that doesn't mean someone who makes art my grandma. Had the mind of an artist like. I've had many fantastic art teachers in my life who have taught me technique and color theory, but my grandma just saw the world through the eyes of an artist like she found beauty in anything which I think is just so beautiful about her and really informed my love for art. And he just said a comment about I don't see anything to do in the shop. You know, I my grandma had cancer. She died of cancer and she passed away a year ago. But the cancer got very bad about two years ago. And it's been about two years since I've been able to make art to be transparent. I just have kind of stopped. And for a while I didn't really understand why with that isn't didn't really feel an intuition pulling me towards it anymore. It's, you know, grief is a fluid thing. It changes, and it hasn't been until very recently that I've realized that. I think it's just because as she died, I. They. Yeah, that part of me isn't dead, but that connection to her. Well, that connection nurse alive. Actually, she just died. And because of that, I've kind of had to redefine my relationship with art in her absence that that's what it is. And and redefining that has taken a lot of time. And I'm only just recently trying to get back into it. But yeah, I think. You know, not only did my grandma inform. The artists within me, but also the art critic within me, like the person just appreciates art, even if I'm not making it so. Yeah, she was one hell of a person I could talk about her for hours. So. I'll stop there. 

Nick Karmia 

I find it so profound when you described her sort of in comparison to these other art teachers you've had that have taught you different techniques and and color theory, and you you say that she had the mind of an artist she didn't just teach technique. Or, you know, served as sort of the that instructor she had this this psychological, almost, like, biological connection to art. Did she ever. Talk to you about. Where she got that from like, was that from her mother, her father? 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah, there was never really. At least she never said to me where it came from. It just kind of she always had it. Yeah, she didn't. Obviously. I kind of get it from her, but she didn't get that from anyone else. But something about her. That was just so fascinating to me is obviously when my grandma was our age, the times were very different. And you know, neither of my parents went to college. My grandma actually went to art school, which is very weird for a woman during that time to go to school, and she did has a job. She was like for IKEA. She like designed. Pamphlets and how to put things together, furniture together and. When she was in her 30s and 40s and she got divorced from my grandfather, my grandfather took her entire portfolio of artwork and threw it in the canal downtown of Lockport. And ever since then, she didn't make art. And that's another, like, such a fascinating thing about her. Of my entire life, I never saw her create once. I don't know why. I do know why she just was turned off by it. She had bad memories associated with. It but she always said I want to get back to. I want to get back to. It and she was never. Able to, but even though I never saw. Her directly create. She still instilled that within me, and that's a further testament of what I just shared of like she had the mind of an artist she didn't even need to be creating to inspire me to do so. So yeah, again, I can just keep talking. About her but. 

Nick Karmia 

Yeah, I mean the this limitation sounds like it's a bit self-imposed based upon different things that have happened to her and the, the the bad experiences, some traumatic experiences limitation that was self-imposed on her creativity. That's, I mean, when I hear people. Who have a passion for something, a burning passion. They get fired up, you know, when they're in an environment where it's happening or they're just thinking about it. It's something that honestly does, like, keep them awake at night. Like when you had described losing sleep over student government because you have this, this certain level of care. Like you feel like. If I don't give it my all on this, on this policy or on this speech, you know I'm going to lose the opportunity to like that fire and somebody else to make change, to have a significant, to make a significant impression on somebody else and positively info. Them you know, that's. That's like the saddest. Thing I feel. Like I could ever hear somebody tell me, is that that limitation they put on themselves for their creativity that's create? 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah, that's fair. I agree. And that's why, you know, I feel not the situations are the same, very different dramatic experiences, but right assured of my grandma is kind of reminiscent of what I'm feeling right now of, you know, I have so much going on, the passion kind of sits, it takes a back seat, you know. And I don't want that to. Be the case so. I'm trying to get back into it. We'll see. But what you just said I I completely agree. It is upsetting when that happens to people. 

Nick Karmia 

And you know, I know these are very personal topics to Hannah and we talked a little bit about this together before, you know, if you don't want to go in depth to anything, it's very emotional subject. Feel free to, you know, tell me to to back off a little bit. I'm just I'm, you know, grief. You've written about it. You've experienced it. Tragedy has been a. Big portion of your life. So if I ever go too far in in my line of questioning, you know feel free to stop me. Anna please. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Sounds good. 

Nick Karmia 

And so. I'll I'll transition to this. And, you know, shortly after your grandmother passes away, your father passes away. 

Speaker 

So. 

Nick Karmia 

And the last time you see him? Is at the airport when you're about to take a flight to London for your study abroad. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah. 

Nick Karmia 

Could could you describe to me what your father was like and what he stood for? 

Hanna Dworkin 

Hmm. Yeah. Am I correct this one, this one, you know, different types of grief manifest differently and. It's kind of like a broadcasted me talking about them, but my grandma, you know, died of cancer. And that was a very there was a lot of. Graceful flourish. Anticipatory grief. I don't think the word where I I knew she was passing and so. You know, talking about her is a bit easier. My dad was very sudden, so gonna try not to. Cry but UM. My dad was also an amazing person. A rock in my life for sure. A show of determination and of strength, and the thing about him that I think I will carry with me for the rest of my life. Is a way of approaching the world through questions. He questioned everything around him, but not in like a weird, you know. Like. Not in a weird way, not in a weird way. Just in a. Wanting to understand things on a deeper level, deeper, deeper level than 99% of people would he was so intelligent and. You know, I I just hope I have even a fraction of that. And me? Moving forward, but you know, I think even I'm assuming you got that from the article I wrote and I appreciate you reading that, but even that story I think is just so indicative of who he was as a person because, you know, I committed to setting abroad in London a year before I went. And as I just shared with you the time. So that is my grandma's cancer. Just started to get bad right when I committed that and I thought hopefully she'll be better by then because denial grips you by any sense of logic you have when you love so. That much, and I was actually supposed to leave for London on June 1st, but my grandma died on May 31st, so I pushed back going the week and that was a very difficult decision for me. Again, one of the most difficult decisions I've ever made in my life. And you know, he was one of the people to be like, she would have wanted you to. Go. Go live your life. Grace will be with you no matter where. You go and. My father was Jewish. I am not. But he was. And so. 

Speaker 

Ohh. 

Hanna Dworkin 

In his own way, he tried to comfort me and he shared that in Judaism. When someone dies, you grieve for seven days, or at least that's you. Show your grief for seven days, and even though the sorrow and emotions of that continue on within you, of course, after seven days you have to carry up. Pick yourself up and carry on. And you said that to me. And that was kind of what pushed me to go. And so I was such a long answer to that. Simple question but I guess not a simple question but in the in the airport I was very emotional. I was very scared and. He was just such a rock and hugged me and made me feel better and stayed there until I was through security and. You know I am. I think that's very symbolic. I like to think that he is still there now, so. Yeah, I I think again, I could talk about my dad forever, but when I. Think of him. That's what comes to mind, strength and intelligence and reliability. 

Nick Karmia 

Such a a pure sense of curiosity he had contained with him within himself to a guy who who questioned a lot about the world, not with a a negative intention. But, you know, just coming from that point of curiosity, I think that's such a beautiful thing. And I would encourage everybody to read that that essay that you had wrote and you described. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah. 

Nick Karmia 

In your essay, how you're somewhere in London had been consumed. By this realization that nothing in life is permanent, including your own life, but after finishing a philosophical reading from a French philosopher, I'm going to do my best to pronounce his name here. Michelle de Montagna you recognized. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Dirt. Yeah, that's good. 

Nick Karmia 

Recognize that fearing death allows you to find a deep appreciation for life, and that you deconstruct what death is. You also understand that's the only thing that's certain in life that time is finite, and you must fight. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah. 

Nick Karmia 

For what you believe in every day, because death is certain, and then they hit you or someone you love in your greatest time of vulnerability. Where do you think? Where? Where do you think this strength you have to battle through tragedy comes from. 

Hanna Dworkin 

You know, I am actually asked this question very often. And my response is always I don't know and I wish I could tell you. I don't know, I think. There is something to be said about you, kind of like I have to get through it and that is a mindset. Now, that's slightly unfair to myself because there are some people who wouldn't get through this who would crumble and not do all the things I've. Been able to do. I just. I have honestly shocked myself with the way that I have gone gotten through this. You know, if you would have told me, even even my sophomore yourself, like we were just talking about Imposter syndrome, written scared. You know, Hannah, in the next two years, you're going to lose the two most important people in your life. I. Would have been Iraq. I I would have legitimately believed. I can't do that. Like I don't have the facilities to do that. And I had just pulled a strength from somewhere in me. I didn't know possible and. I'm just so proud of myself, but. I don't know, I I. Because other people who. Have a fear of death. Have asked me that and I wish I could give an answer of, oh, I did this, this and this but. Yeah, I I don't know. 

Nick Karmia 

So interesting and and and something that you've posted on Instagram related to all this that really stuck out to me. Is you saying love is stronger than grief? 

Speaker 

MHM. 

Nick Karmia 

Do you think that motto is maybe something you've always had inside you? Or was it something you'd only begun to adopt while experiencing these tremendous losses? 

Hanna Dworkin 

Well, there is something to be said about you can't understand grief until you go through it. It's. You know the thing about empathy that is so beautiful is is. Humans, we have the capacity to put ourselves in situations that we haven't necessarily directly been in, and I've always considered myself an empathetic person, sometimes to my detriment. But grief is an immensely unique experience. Like it wasn't until I went through grief that I realized that it's the philosopher Michael Colby calls it an activity. The grief is not an emotion, it's a series of emotions. It's the process. And. So, you know, I've heard the motto. Love is stronger. Will outlast grief my whole life? But no, I I don't think I actually believed it until I went through grief because you can't fully understand it until again. You go through it. 

Nick Karmia 

And through it all, Hannah, the accolades, the accolades, I should say you've garnered seem endless. Do you? Do you feel like there's a lot of weight on your shoulders, a lot of people to make proud? 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yes, but now I feel like I deserve that. And a couple of years ago, I didn't feel that way. And you know, I really appreciate you saying that about all the accolades, but. These deaths have informed. My sense of self, more than any other award or not any other death is an award more than any award I've ever gotten in my life. More than any grade more than anything. And you think that a loss like that? Would do the opposite and it kind of did like it it these losses shook. Who I am to my core and essential part of these essays I wrote is. You know, grief for everyone looks different, but I'm talking about here deep grief, grief of a parent of a grandparent, of a best friend of a partner. Someone who you love so intently that they inform who you are, like your identity is contingent on this person. Like my perception of myself as an artist comes from my grandma. My perception of myself as an intellect comes from my. Dad, when they die a part of me dies with them and I think. Grief presents people with a very pivotal moment in their life when they can either accept the facts or part of themselves has have died and live with that part gone, or work to rebuild that part in that person's absence. And I think it would be a disservice to my grandma and my dad to allow those parts of myself to dwindle. So. You know, grief has. Informed my self-confidence and perception of myself. And I am. I just, you know, it's cliche, but if I can get through this, I can get through anything. And that's my mindset now. 

Nick Karmia 

It's an amazing mindset to adopt. It truly is to not let all these horrible things impact your success in the future, and that's exactly what you've done. You've adopted it as a strength rather than some kind of a weakness. I'm curious what has. What role has your your mother played in? All of this. 

Hanna Dworkin 

That's a good question. UM, you know. I. That's her story. I don't want to get, you know, too specific with her cause. This is also her grief, too. That's her mom. My grandma was her mom. That a lot of people get that confused. So this is her mom. And you know my parents were divorced, but they still had a close relationship. So practically her partner and. Grief is difficult for everyone, but I think we've formed, you know, in grief. Again, you can form new bonds and. There is good to come out of it if you can find it. And that's one thing I found is my mom and I are closer than we've ever been in my whole life. Because we. Our number one person to turn to is now each other. You know, so yeah. But she she's been a rock in my life and I'm very thankful to have her. 

Nick Karmia 

You know, going a little bit back to this, this philosophy, you could say that you've. Adopted here and and using all the tragedy that has struck you so abruptly, and so at the core and using it as a strength rather than as a, you know as some kind of a weakness or maybe like a really bad crutch that. You kind of just have. To to let go do you do you? Do you often recognize your own achievements, Hannah? 

Hanna Dworkin 

Generally no, but as of recent, yes. 

Nick Karmia 

Yeah. And I know you kind of, I know you kind of talked about that a little bit earlier like you know, I'm gonna. I'm gonna keep pushing forward. I'm not gonna let this this take me down. You know, I'm strong enough to keep moving, but I don't know. I just, I get this sense and I'm. I'm I am I think this way a lot of the time. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah. 

Speaker 

So. 

Time. 

Nick Karmia 

I get the sense that maybe for you. It's kind of hard to take a compliment sometimes. You know, like, I don't know if I honestly, I don't know if I honestly believe it. You know, like somebody tells me like I'm good at something or you did a really great job on this, on this project or on this, whatever. And it's like, I mean, this is just me, you know, being me, I don't I I guess I appreciate what you said, but. I don't. I I'm gonna. I need to do even better. Like if. You're there's like this. Inconceivable standards. Sometimes that I that I am personally trying to reach in a lot of different avenues in life. And. It's just it's the wrong way to be thinking about things, but it's. Like it's so. 

Ingrained. Do you feel that at? 

Hanna Dworkin 

All totally. I think what you just described is exactly me people. You know, I almost get uncomfortable when people compliment me. Like what you just said about. The accolades like I. I don't almost don't know how to internalize it and that's. Something I'm trying to work on and something I've recognized again with everything that's been going on because. You know, compliments like that hold so much more weight when you're going through things like this. And I try to, I should allow myself to accept comments I should do. But it's a process. So yeah, I. Resonate with that a lot. 

Nick Karmia 

And I watched this senior spotlight video you did with BYU and I think, yeah, there was a recent one that you did and you mentioned being a meticulous planner and establishing what was going to happen over the next four years as you went through Boston University. But a lot of things have turned out to be different. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah. 

Nick Karmia 

What are? What are the the biggest differences that stick out to you, Hannah? Things that you're really surprised by, situations you would have thought you'd never find yourself in? 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah. Well, I think the biggest one is. Obviously the tragedy that's happened in my life never would have anticipated that. And you know, I was, I've always been. Very into my academics, so it's always been the first priority in my life and you know, as college went even before these losses occurred, these losses solidified these beliefs. But there started to be little voices in the back of my head saying, why are you prioritizing an A on this paper? Over your mental health, like you haven't slept in a couple of days, you're very anxious. Maybe an A minus is OK and. It stops like that and taking the back seat and I have shifted my priorities where I can confidently say that me and my mental health now come first. I have learned how to take breaks from things I've learned how. To say no. And that's why I'm taking two gap years. You know, that's. I never freshman year, meat never would have done that, and now I can't imagine going straight through. So a lot of things have changed. But you know. It's going to be a bit. Of a long answer, I'm sorry but. Grief. People don't talk about it for a lot of reasons, and I think one of the reasons. It's it's ugly and it's complicated, and there's a lot of thoughts that you have that you're like, whoa, I didn't. Even know I thought that way. Like there is an element of my grief where I've realized so much of the things I. Was doing were. To make my dad and my grandma proud. And it's not that I regret those decisions, but now you know. Neither of them were even here to see all of that work actually materialized into a graduation in a full time job. And again, I want to emphasize I don't regret those decisions. I think I did make them proud while they were here, but the only person you were guaranteed to have in your life is. So now that the God makes this almost silence of I have no one to make proud of, then like my mom, of course. But really, it's me. So what? Will I find fulfilling what will make me proud and so? That shift has been the biggest thing that's changed, and of course I couldn't say that in a 32nd senior spotlight, but that's what I was getting at of my priorities and perception of what. My goals are has changed. 

Nick Karmia 

You've had so many unique experiences, Hannah. It's absolutely unbelievable. The story that has. That has been created over time just based upon what you've gone through in life, and there's no doubt. That the path to get to where you are today hasn't been easy. You said days without sleep. Geez, I don't think I've gone without. I think I've gone a whole like maybe two days. Well, that's. I'm not. I'm not even trying. I'm just being honest. I'm not trying to like compete. With you. 

Here in OK but like these days without sleep. 

Hanna Dworkin 

No. 

Nick Karmia 

That's crazy. That is serious dedication, determination and through all. 

Hanna Dworkin 

I don't. 

Nick Karmia 

Yeah, please. Yeah. 

Hanna Dworkin 

I I don't do it anymore. I see. That's. I'm gonna push back on that and say. You know, days that sleep is not dedication. That's bad. I you know, you should be more dedicated to yourself. And and I, nick, that is the exact thing I would have said probably 5 minutes ago. There was a part of me that's to like. That's dedication but. 

Yeah. 

Hanna Dworkin 

You know, I I my point was just I look back on that time and I'm just like, oh, I wish I would have been more gentle with myself. I wish I would have prioritized a few extra hours of sleep over a .01 difference in my GPA. That's all I was trying to say. 

Nick Karmia 

Hannah, why are you here on this earth at this time? I've asked a lot of crazy questions. If I put you through a surprise mock trial. 

Speaker 

And. 

Nick Karmia 

I was going into so many different parts of your lived experiences. I'm I'm I'm never going to stop asking questions and just tell me right now, Hannah. But I'm curious. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Crazy. 

Speaker 

Yeah. 

Nick Karmia 

Why are you here on this earth at this time? What do you think? 

Hanna Dworkin 

You know. I don't think I will ever know the answer to that question fully and I think. That's a good. Thing. This goes back to what I said in the interview of life. You know we are fluid with life, our personalities, our perceptions change. And so my answer to that question will probably look so different in 20 years or in 40 years. But right now my answer to that. I think. You know at 22. The the one. Thing we're going to talk about on this podcast that's been a huge part of. My life is. Anxiety. I used to have a very bad anxiety disorder that I'm very open about and. I used to have panic attacks daily and I for years could not break through. I couldn't get through it and I finally did. In between that experience and this grief, and just generally. The way I have tried to incorporate empathy in my life and the way I've grown through these experiences, I think I am here to help other people with that same experience. This sounds dramatic, but people who are hostages to their own mind, the way that imposter syndrome is an example. Or anxiety or depression, or you know. I struggle with it too, but I've also made a lot of progress in learning. To form a relationship with yourself and. Being proud of who you are and breaking through your own mind. I know that sounds dramatic, but it's really not. I that's I think my purpose here and I'm I'm not sure how that will manifest but. I'm looking forward to seeing how how it plays out. 

Nick Karmia 

Well, I appreciate you sharing that, Hannah. And you know when you talk about this, this battle you've had with anxiety and panic attacks, different things like this, and you're very open about speaking through it with other people and this, this idea that you're you're here right now to help other people who are going through that same exact thing or just experience. Thing you know, difficulties in life in general, different obstacles. You know, it's not a it's not a I haven't done a whole lot. I've done 9 episodes before this one right 10th episode of season one. And every time I I feel like I've ever asked a question like that or related to that. Everybody always says something along the lines of you know. You know, I wanna help people, right? I wanna do the right thing. Want to be known as the person who does the right thing and helps other. People because you know, I've gone through something and have been able to overcome it in some way. You know, there still may be a continuous battle with it, but I want to prove to others that they can get through it, just like me, no matter where they've come from, no matter where they live, no matter what kind of network they have around them. I'll be there for them and I'll walk you through it step by step. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yeah. 

Nick Karmia 

Why? Why do? You think so many people? I mean, I should say nine people, I guess. But I feel like a lot of people have that mentality. I truly do. I believe that. Why? Why? How have we? How do people? 

Get to that. 

Nick Karmia 

It's it's just like it's like human nature. You know. How how? How is it that people have adopted that mentality so much? What do you think? 

Hanna Dworkin 

That's a good question. Well, I think. It kind of go back to what you were saying earlier. Boils down to everyone doubts themselves. Everyone, no matter who you are. Don't care if you're Joe Biden. Don't care. Whatever everyone doubts themselves. But people don't like to be vulnerable with each other. That's. A scary thing. And I think, you know, I can't speak for those other nine people you interviewed but. From my experience and from what I have learned from others. When you go through things like that, it often feels incredibly isolating and lonely. And but it's not. Well it, it's but. You know, in actuality, it's not because there's always other people who are going through similar things always. And it's not until you kind of go through that that often you can look around and be like, wow, I wish I would have known that, you know. Like like for example I posted about my dad passing away a week after he died and I had 50 people. Damn me who have known, you know, Nick from Lamont my entire life. Who their dad died. And I had no idea. And I was like, well, I I wish I would have been there to help them. I wish I would have known this right when he passed like. There is a an intuition to. Save other people from the same fate to step in where you wish someone would have stepped. In for you. At least that's where it comes from me, so. What do you think your purpose is Nicomedia? Where are you here? 

Wow. 

Nick Karmia 

Wow, here we go. You said you might do this. You said you. Might turn the. Interview questions on. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Chance. 

Nick Karmia 

What do I think my purpose is? 

Hanna Dworkin 

Mm-hmm. 

Nick Karmia 

I think I was brought here. Anna to perform a very unique duty. To be a part of the next generation of storytellers and storytelling is so important in the world that we live in. It's been around since the dawn of humankind. A good story inspires people, makes people cry, makes people happy, gets people out of bed. And gets people to work. It does so many different things and I think without at least one good story, every now and then in our lives. It's hard to look towards the future. With bright eyes. Whoa, did. 

I just rhyme. Right there. Whoa, yeah. 

Nick Karmia 

Crazy. OK, I think it's very difficult to do that. I think it's very difficult to find the light at the end of the tunnel without hearing a really good story. And it could be just from a friend or it can be a tale as old as time. I want to be a storyteller who brings in that element into other people's lives. I truly do. I really do. And that's that's what this podcast is all about, right? Bringing inspirational stories from extraordinary people such as yourself, because there is some person out there. I don't, I honestly. I don't think about how many people. Download this episode and listen to it. If there's just one individual who can walk away from this and change something for the better in their life, I call that a win. I call that a serious achievement because all of us have the capacity to change the world. A very amazing and innovative way. Simply because we have a passion to do so. Something. I was talking to you before, before we started this. I believe that all my life, I think no matter what it is you're passionate about, no matter where your creativity comes from or what you what you fight for, what you believe in. If you fully dedicate yourself to that and you remain consistent, there is change somewhere in the world. You can you can impose and and and create just a a better world for all I mean truly. I I believe it doesn't. It doesn't matter what you do. It could be a very simple line. Of work it could. Be something as difficult as leading an entire country. You know there. There's so much room. To change things for the better, simply because you love doing something. Yeah. And so when it comes to my purpose, I want to supply that feeling. I want to supply that philosophy into other people's lives as much as possible. And I chose journalism as an outlet to do that. And I think right now, you know, there's a lot of distrust, there's a lot of. I think there's a especially among our generation. I think there's a bit of a lack of attention to what goes on in the world around them. And I think, you know, especially I've talked about this with several guests before too. What the pandemic did to us, I think not only because we're using social media with this algorithm with these very short time spans and constantly being stimulated by information and small for content. And it's not only reduced our ability to pay attention to a really good story or to actually intake. And store information. But it has also created this. I I think not only a lack of appreciation for really good storytelling. But just. I I guess a lack of effort, a lack of motivation, you know? Yeah, out there and do what you love to do than most. I feel like I was gonna go in a bit of a different direction with that, but that is true as well. So I I I you know, it's a long answer. What I think my purpose is is reinstalling those values a really good storytelling impacting other people's lives. 

Hanna Dworkin 

No. 

Nick Karmia 

With the good story so they can go out there, use their passion. To do what's right. To do what they love and change the world while doing so, that's what I'm all about. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Hannah, I love it, and that fits into what you said about all your guests. Like you also want to help people in. You know, doing your passion, I think that's. That's amazing. So good for you. I'm. I'm happy to be able to do that. 

Nick Karmia 

I gotta do more mock slots. I gotta do more mock trials, actually. And that's what I have to do. 

Speaker 

Oh. 

Hanna Dworkin 

More mock trials with other people. 

Nick Karmia 

That's it, that's the answer. To the question, that's what we have to. Do. All right, Hannah, we've been going for almost 2 hours. Here. Let me ask you. One or maybe two more questions. OK, OK. Number one, I want to ask, do you want to have children? 

Hanna Dworkin 

I have no idea. That's yeah. Maybe, but I. Want to be secure in a partner and in a marriage before I even in in a career before I even. Think about that. 

Nick Karmia 

Now, if you were to have children, would you want them to be like you? 

Hanna Dworkin 

Yes. But no one's perfect. I think as a parent it would be my job to instill. The lessons I've learned within them in the hopes that they don't make the same mistakes I did, and not that I made mistakes, I just think. Or any phrase app, not that they make the same mistakes I did that they could avoid some of the hardship I went through. But yes, I do hope that they would be like me. 

Nick Karmia 

Do you think it's possible that every one of your kids could just be one could work? For **** Durbin could get a piece of art on Capitol Hill. Do you think you're you'll continue that legacy? 

Hanna Dworkin 

I hope they do whatever they are passionate about. If that is working for **** Durbin and doing law, absolutely. If it's not, I never want to be the type of parents that would coax their kids to do a similar path. 

Speaker 

No. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Weirdest things that have kids. Or they could be listening to this, that's weird, but. Yeah, that's my answer. Whatever they are passionate about, I think they will have the capacity to do. 

Nick Karmia 

Now you're only 22, Hannah. You've lived a very short period in your life thus far, and there are many more great years to come. You're definitely going. To. Change the world. I just know it my final question to you, Hannah. 

Speaker 

Thanks. 

Nick Karmia 

What do you want to be remembered for? 

Hanna Dworkin 

Hmm. That is such a good question. I'm going to give this answer. Ever since I was a little girl, we all have things that our parents say to us over and over again, and it's like. Echoing in the back of our minds, my mother has said to me ever since I was a little girl, people remember the way that you make them feel. They won't necessarily remember exactly what you say or what you do. They remember the way that you make them feel. So I hope that people remember. That I made them feel good, that I made them feel supported. But I made them feel smart and capable. And that can be done through a lot of things and. I'm. Excited to see what? I do, but that's my answer. 

Nick Karmia 

Fantastic. Hannah, it has been a pleasure. It has been an honor. It's been a privilege, Hannah, to be in your presence, to do the season finale of Carmela's. Got questions. I think that I think that concludes our show here, Hannah. For everybody who's listening, no matter where you are, no matter where you come from, no matter what stage of your life you may be in right now, in this very moment which you just listened. Through should be an inspiration. It should be something to look forward to. It should be something. Hopefully you recall in your mind when times get tough. Thank you so much for everybody who's listened in this far to the season finale of Carmela's. Got questions? KGB Q. The final episode of season one. I I'm I'm. I'm honestly I'm struggling. This is kind of an emotional moment. I keep calling it historic cause it absolutely is. This is great. This has been really fun and we will return to you sometime soon. Hannah might tell me to never do this show ever again. After this episode is very possible. Thank you so much. Once again everybody for tuning in to Carmela's got questions Season 10, season one, episode 10. It's been amazing. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Hi. 

Nick Karmia 

Everybody's listening. Have a great rest of your day. 

Hanna Dworkin 

Wait, Nick, let me say something. I just want to say I think you should be really proud of yourself. I didn't really know what I was getting into with this. 

Ohh yeah, go ahead. 

Hanna Dworkin 

But. I think it's very rare for anyone, especially someone our age, to take the time to do something like this. To just sit and actively lose them for two hours, people don't realize how important of a skill that is. Nick, this is so impactful and the thing you said earlier about wanting to share people's stories is. And I'm we hardly know each other, but I'm just very proud of you. This was really great. So Congrats on a great season and I hope I did the finally justice and. Thank you for having having. 

Nick Karmia 

You certainly did. You've done it justice here today and you will do it in the courtroom for the. 

Me two years, no doubt about it and beyond. Anna, thank you. 

Hanna Dworkin 

All the time. Travel paces. I'll be an expert. 

Nick Karmia 

Absolutely alright, everybody have a have a great rest of your day. This has been Nick Karmia and Hannah Dworkin for carmela's. Got questions? Goodbye.